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http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-5935 HW Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:20:18 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-5935 Well, my overseeded fescue lawn is doing great even with the water restrictions. So I guess it is possible to have a healthy lawn after all. Glad we are getting all this rain. What a difference a year makes!

Well, my overseeded fescue lawn is doing great even with the water restrictions. So I guess it is possible to have a healthy lawn after all. Glad we are getting all this rain. What a difference a year makes!

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2600 HW Sun, 17 Aug 2008 00:06:49 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2600 The details discussed here come straight from the Turf File Documents. So as before, I don’t question the validity of the facts as laid out in the Turf Files and discussed here. I question how some people misinterpret them. I will leave out the (!). :)

The details discussed here come straight from the Turf File Documents. So as before, I don’t question the validity of the facts as laid out in the Turf Files and discussed here. I question how some people misinterpret them. I will leave out the (!).

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2598 jrtlover Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:32:58 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2598 HW, "If you question the details DISCUSSED HERE..." !!!!!!!!!!

HW, “If you question the details DISCUSSED HERE…” !!!!!!!!!!

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2592 HW Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:57:36 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2592 "HW, if you question the details discussed here, why don’t you call the Master Gardener helpline. They’re there to answer any questions you have." I don't question the Turf Files. I question how some like Dana misinterpret them. ~ HW

“HW, if you question the details discussed here, why don’t you call the Master Gardener helpline. They’re there to answer any questions you have.”

I don’t question the Turf Files. I question how some like Dana misinterpret them.

~ HW

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2591 HW Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:56:17 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2591 Dana, You don't need to kill your fescue lawn with hebicides to switch over from fescue to bemuda or zoysia. Again, those other grasses are typically installed through sod and plugs. The fescue is removed through manual labor, not chemicals. And the nely placed bermuda and zoysia will use less water than fescue. Also, Cary's plan encourages new developers from not putting fescue in in the first place.It is new constrcution so there is not grass to remove in the first place. Another good option. Cary's plan is not "political symbolism that lacks logic" just beacuse you don't understand those things. ~ HW

Dana,

You don’t need to kill your fescue lawn with hebicides to switch over from fescue to bemuda or zoysia. Again, those other grasses are typically installed through sod and plugs. The fescue is removed through manual labor, not chemicals. And the nely placed bermuda and zoysia will use less water than fescue.

Also, Cary’s plan encourages new developers from not putting fescue in in the first place.It is new constrcution so there is not grass to remove in the first place. Another good option.

Cary’s plan is not “political symbolism that lacks logic” just beacuse you don’t understand those things.

~ HW

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2589 jrtlover Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:41:59 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2589 Just read "Carolina Lawns" from cover to cover; it's all there in simple, specific directions. There's no need for bickering over word choice. Dana tried to make a good point and to help readers achieve healthy lawns. For that, Dana, thank you. Most homeowners don't follow best practices, and that's why they have so much trouble keeping fescue healthy year-round. It's not "rocket science", but there definitely are rules to follow. As for the number of minutes it takes for each seed to absorb enough water to remain moist enough to germinate, it depends on the amount of sun on a specific day, the humidity that day, the output of the sprinkler head used (whether it's a built-in sprinkler or a hose-end sprinkler), the time of day you water, and even the minerals in the water used. I think that, on an average, 10 minutes a day in a given area is a good guess for absorption. One trick that defies the rule of watering grass in the early morning hours, is to water reseeded lawns in the late afternoon for about 2 weeks. This allows the seeds to remain thoroughly moist throughout the night hours and into the next day, until the sun gets hot enough to start drying them out. Of course, in the hot, humid summer, that's a HUGE no-no because it encourages fungus-type diseases. Another suggestion (which sort of defies the advice given in "Carolina Lawns") is, in the Raleigh area, wait a little later into September to reseed. Remember that "Carolina Lawns" is published for the entire state of NC. I like to reseed about Sept. 15-20, depending on the heat we're experiencing. We can have some pretty intense sun and very warm days in early September. Also, September can be a very wet month too, depending on the hurricane activity we see. Don't overwater! It's possible to rot the seeds and not get any germination at all! If we do get heavy rains from a hurricane after you have reseeded, you might need to put down more seeds since the first batch might drown or be washed away. Use your judgment here, depending on your specific location and the amount of slope on your lawn. HW, if you question the details discussed here, why don't you call the Master Gardener helpline. They're there to answer any questions you have. I'm glad this has come up in August so people will have time to read "Carolina Lawns" and, hopefully, get better results with their lawns.

Just read “Carolina Lawns” from cover to cover; it’s all there in simple, specific directions. There’s no need for bickering over word choice. Dana tried to make a good point and to help readers achieve healthy lawns. For that, Dana, thank you. Most homeowners don’t follow best practices, and that’s why they have so much trouble keeping fescue healthy year-round. It’s not “rocket science”, but there definitely are rules to follow.

As for the number of minutes it takes for each seed to absorb enough water to remain moist enough to germinate, it depends on the amount of sun on a specific day, the humidity that day, the output of the sprinkler head used (whether it’s a built-in sprinkler or a hose-end sprinkler), the time of day you water, and even the minerals in the water used. I think that, on an average, 10 minutes a day in a given area is a good guess for absorption.

One trick that defies the rule of watering grass in the early morning hours, is to water reseeded lawns in the late afternoon for about 2 weeks. This allows the seeds to remain thoroughly moist throughout the night hours and into the next day, until the sun gets hot enough to start drying them out. Of course, in the hot, humid summer, that’s a HUGE no-no because it encourages fungus-type diseases.

Another suggestion (which sort of defies the advice given in “Carolina Lawns”) is, in the Raleigh area, wait a little later into September to reseed. Remember that “Carolina Lawns” is published for the entire state of NC. I like to reseed about Sept. 15-20, depending on the heat we’re experiencing. We can have some pretty intense sun and very warm days in early September. Also, September can be a very wet month too, depending on the hurricane activity we see.

Don’t overwater! It’s possible to rot the seeds and not get any germination at all! If we do get heavy rains from a hurricane after you have reseeded, you might need to put down more seeds since the first batch might drown or be washed away. Use your judgment here, depending on your specific location and the amount of slope on your lawn.

HW, if you question the details discussed here, why don’t you call the Master Gardener helpline. They’re there to answer any questions you have.

I’m glad this has come up in August so people will have time to read “Carolina Lawns” and, hopefully, get better results with their lawns.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2588 Dana Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:34:14 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2588 If I'm getting a beautiful, hearty, fescue lawn year-round with 140 minutes of total annual irrigation, then how am I going to use less water by killing my existing lawn (with a lot of herbicide) and using the amount of water it takes to establish a new lawn? Cary's program is another example of political symbolism that lacks logic.

If I’m getting a beautiful, hearty, fescue lawn year-round with 140 minutes of total annual irrigation, then how am I going to use less water by killing my existing lawn (with a lot of herbicide) and using the amount of water it takes to establish a new lawn? Cary’s program is another example of political symbolism that lacks logic.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2587 HW Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:00:32 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2587 Dana, I agree with your last post about it being hard to get good germination under the current restrictions. The purpose of my posts was just to point out that germination and deep healthy root systems occur at different times via different water methods. Raleigh should also consider adopting an incentive program simialr to Cary's "Turf Buy Back Program" where they reward homeowners and builders by paying them or reducing their impact fees if they eliminate their use fescue lawns and instead grow drought tolerant lawns comprised of warm season grasses like bermuda or zoysia. Cary's Turf Buy back program info: http://www.townofcary.org/depts/pwdept/water/waterconservation/incentiveprograms/turfbuybackprogramguidelines.htm I think it would also be wise for people to get a better handle on how and when to properly fertilize their lawns. A lot of residents over fertilize or apply it in such a way that a lot of the granules end up on theri driveway or sidewalk only to be wasked into the stormwater drain and into the neuse river. High nutrients in the Neuse lead to algae blooms in the Estuary, low dissolved oxygen and ultimately fish kills. Residential landscaping is only one of the factors in this issue but it is a big contributor. Thankfully the NC extension office does outreach and public education on this, but there are still a lot of uninformed homeowners out there. Here to a wet fall! ~ HW

Dana,

I agree with your last post about it being hard to get good germination under the current restrictions. The purpose of my posts was just to point out that germination and deep healthy root systems occur at different times via different water methods.

Raleigh should also consider adopting an incentive program simialr to Cary’s “Turf Buy Back Program” where they reward homeowners and builders by paying them or reducing their impact fees if they eliminate their use fescue lawns and instead grow drought tolerant lawns comprised of warm season grasses like bermuda or zoysia.

Cary’s Turf Buy back program info:
http://www.townofcary.org/depts/pwdept/water/waterconservation/incentiveprograms/turfbuybackprogramguidelines.htm

I think it would also be wise for people to get a better handle on how and when to properly fertilize their lawns. A lot of residents over fertilize or apply it in such a way that a lot of the granules end up on theri driveway or sidewalk only to be wasked into the stormwater drain and into the neuse river. High nutrients in the Neuse lead to algae blooms in the Estuary, low dissolved oxygen and ultimately fish kills. Residential landscaping is only one of the factors in this issue but it is a big contributor. Thankfully the NC extension office does outreach and public education on this, but there are still a lot of uninformed homeowners out there.

Here to a wet fall!

~ HW

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2584 Dana Sat, 16 Aug 2008 14:52:24 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2584 You cannot EVER get deep roots if the seeds don't germinate properly. Roots deepen over the winter and early spring. I realize that analogies aren't your thing, but if we had laws that prevented mothers from developing healthy fetuses, wouldn't we then have a problem with pediatric health later? This is the same thing. There is a strict protocol for establishing drought resistant lawns. It requires aerating, seeding, seed selection, fertilization, pH management, and water; all at specific times during the year. The City of Raleigh's laws prevent following that calendar. Anyone who disagrees with this is invited to call the extension office or consult a turf grass specialist.

You cannot EVER get deep roots if the seeds don’t germinate properly. Roots deepen over the winter and early spring. I realize that analogies aren’t your thing, but if we had laws that prevented mothers from developing healthy fetuses, wouldn’t we then have a problem with pediatric health later? This is the same thing.

There is a strict protocol for establishing drought resistant lawns. It requires aerating, seeding, seed selection, fertilization, pH management, and water; all at specific times during the year. The City of Raleigh’s laws prevent following that calendar. Anyone who disagrees with this is invited to call the extension office or consult a turf grass specialist.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2573 HW Sat, 16 Aug 2008 06:52:17 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2573 FWIW with regards to your Bemuda Grass comments. I believe you are quoting the directions given from the section that discusses Bermuda grass use on athletic fields. I don't kow about you but I don't live in the middle of a football field. You need to read the Lawn Maintenance Calendar for Bermuda Grass: http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/Maintenance_Calendars.aspx#000016 For BERMUDA GRASS it clearly states under the March - May Maintenance Section: "Replant large bare areas using sod or sprigs (3 to 5 bushels per thousand square feet). Common bermudagrass can be seeded using hulled bermudagrass at 1 to 2 pounds per thousand square feet." It makes no mention of reseeding in the September - November Maintenance section. That is because homeowners do not rennovate bermuda lawns in the fall. I don't know why they do for Athletic Fields like you pointed out. Talk to Dr. Arthur H. Bruneau at NCSU to find out why these two maintenance calendars for Bermuda differ if you want to get to the bottom of that one! :)

FWIW with regards to your Bemuda Grass comments. I believe you are quoting the directions given from the section that discusses Bermuda grass use on athletic fields. I don’t kow about you but I don’t live in the middle of a football field. You need to read the Lawn Maintenance Calendar for Bermuda Grass:

http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/Maintenance_Calendars.aspx#000016

For BERMUDA GRASS it clearly states under the March – May Maintenance Section:

“Replant large bare areas using sod or sprigs (3 to 5 bushels per thousand square feet). Common bermudagrass can be seeded using hulled bermudagrass at 1 to 2 pounds per thousand square feet.”

It makes no mention of reseeding in the September – November Maintenance section. That is because homeowners do not rennovate bermuda lawns in the fall. I don’t know why they do for Athletic Fields like you pointed out.

Talk to Dr. Arthur H. Bruneau at NCSU to find out why these two maintenance calendars for Bermuda differ if you want to get to the bottom of that one!

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2572 HW Sat, 16 Aug 2008 06:39:26 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2572 I think you are still missing a critical point about healthy lawns. You are mixing the issue of seed germination with the issue of developing a deep root system. These two things require different watering techniques. The 14 days of watering you are looking for does not promote "Healthy lawns have deep roots, enabling them to withstand hot, dry months." as you imply. It only promotes developing new grass seedlings with shallow roots. Yes you need 14 days of constantly keeping the seeds wet to get them to germinate, but it is infrequent and long watering periods that you do later on after the lawn is established from reseeding that promotes deep roots that help lawns withstand hot weather. This is accomplished through once a week waterings of about 1" of water across the lawn which takes roughly one hour per zone, not just 10 minutes. The Short periods of watering needed during seed germination only allow for enough water to keep the surface and seeds wet but and promotes shallow roots since the small amount of watering from 10 minutes of watering doesn't seep into the ground. I see what you want as far as the right to reseed your lawn in the fall and I agree with you about that point, but that has nothing to do with your argument made in the original post about how the City of Raleigh is "uninterested in healthy lawns" since the current water restrictions do allow for watering at least once a week which if done properly can and does promote deep root systems. Seed germination and the development of deep root systems are two different things that occur through two totally different watering techniques yet you seem to think they can be accomplished the same way at the same time. That is False. ~ HW

I think you are still missing a critical point about healthy lawns. You are mixing the issue of seed germination with the issue of developing a deep root system. These two things require different watering techniques.

The 14 days of watering you are looking for does not promote “Healthy lawns have deep roots, enabling them to withstand hot, dry months.” as you imply. It only promotes developing new grass seedlings with shallow roots. Yes you need 14 days of constantly keeping the seeds wet to get them to germinate, but it is infrequent and long watering periods that you do later on after the lawn is established from reseeding that promotes deep roots that help lawns withstand hot weather. This is accomplished through once a week waterings of about 1″ of water across the lawn which takes roughly one hour per zone, not just 10 minutes.

The Short periods of watering needed during seed germination only allow for enough water to keep the surface and seeds wet but and promotes shallow roots since the small amount of watering from 10 minutes of watering doesn’t seep into the ground.

I see what you want as far as the right to reseed your lawn in the fall and I agree with you about that point, but that has nothing to do with your argument made in the original post about how the City of Raleigh is “uninterested in healthy lawns” since the current water restrictions do allow for watering at least once a week which if done properly can and does promote deep root systems.

Seed germination and the development of deep root systems are two different things that occur through two totally different watering techniques yet you seem to think they can be accomplished the same way at the same time. That is False.

~ HW

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2570 Dana Sat, 16 Aug 2008 04:18:54 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2570 Round and round she goes. Since you didn't care to read it earlier, I'll restate what it says SPECIFICALLY ABOUT BERMUDA: “Overseeding in the Raleigh area is usually done between September 15 and October 1.” You are completely missing the point of the post. If the City of Raleigh REALLY cared about decreasing citizens' need for irrigation throughout the summer, it would allow us to conservatively irrigate during the small, critical window that affords drought resistance. Those promoting warm season grasses aren't solving the problem either. Those seeds still have to germinate with DAILY WATERING. A policy that banned all watering from July 4 through September 14, then allowed watering until October 1 would lead citizens to use FAR LESS WATER annually than the current policy. I have hardly ever needed to water my lawn outside of a two week period of overseeding. Good germination, pH control, and proper fertilizing usually will yield a green fescue lawn through most summers without irrigation. As far as people who cannot perform overseeding during that window, too bad. Do you think that Mother Nature is going to stop the seasonal rhythms for people who are out of town? The right time to plant is the right time to plant for a reason. This assumption that people will use less water with weak lawns is absurd and shows that the City Council and Public Works departments have absolutely no understanding of horticulture. I could go on about the historic stupidity of Dale Crisp, but that's for another post.

Round and round she goes. Since you didn’t care to read it earlier, I’ll restate what it says SPECIFICALLY ABOUT BERMUDA:
“Overseeding in the Raleigh area is usually done between September 15 and October 1.”

You are completely missing the point of the post. If the City of Raleigh REALLY cared about decreasing citizens’ need for irrigation throughout the summer, it would allow us to conservatively irrigate during the small, critical window that affords drought resistance. Those promoting warm season grasses aren’t solving the problem either. Those seeds still have to germinate with DAILY WATERING.

A policy that banned all watering from July 4 through September 14, then allowed watering until October 1 would lead citizens to use FAR LESS WATER annually than the current policy. I have hardly ever needed to water my lawn outside of a two week period of overseeding. Good germination, pH control, and proper fertilizing usually will yield a green fescue lawn through most summers without irrigation.

As far as people who cannot perform overseeding during that window, too bad. Do you think that Mother Nature is going to stop the seasonal rhythms for people who are out of town? The right time to plant is the right time to plant for a reason.

This assumption that people will use less water with weak lawns is absurd and shows that the City Council and Public Works departments have absolutely no understanding of horticulture. I could go on about the historic stupidity of Dale Crisp, but that’s for another post.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2569 HW Sat, 16 Aug 2008 03:54:18 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2569 FYI, Just double checked the link the Master Gardner provided: www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/guides.aspx#004175 According to that NC Turf Files Document: "Warm-season grasses are best planted in late spring and early summer. Unlike cool-season grasses, some warm-season grasses must be planted either by sod or other vegetative means because seeds either are not available or do not result in uniform stands." Bermuda is a warm season grass. The above maintenance schedule makes sense as it would not make sense to seed bermuda in the fall since it will go dormant in a few short weeks. Most people install bermuda via sod anyway. Just wanted to share. :) ~ HW I stand behind my earlier comment.

FYI,

Just double checked the link the Master Gardner provided:

http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/guides.aspx#004175

According to that NC Turf Files Document:

“Warm-season grasses are best planted in late spring and early summer. Unlike cool-season grasses, some warm-season grasses must be planted either by sod or other vegetative means because seeds either are not available or do not result in uniform stands.”

Bermuda is a warm season grass.

The above maintenance schedule makes sense as it would not make sense to seed bermuda in the fall since it will go dormant in a few short weeks. Most people install bermuda via sod anyway.

Just wanted to share.

~ HW

I stand behind my earlier comment.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2563 HW Sat, 16 Aug 2008 03:24:24 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2563 I'm not flaming you. I'm just disagreeing with you. I was wrong about the bermuda, but Spring is the time for Zoysia and centipede establishment. I still don't get the 2.33 hour idea. Maybe some people can keep their seeds wet with 10 minutes of watering, but that assumes everyone has the same limited amount of yard area. Clearly that is not the case. While it is true a lot of people have small lots, not everyone does and some people would need way more time than 10 minutes to cover their entire lawn. I don't understand the point you are making about car washes. Sorry. Again, not a flame and while I admit to my error about seeding bermuda in the fall I still do think you don't have a full understanding of the issues at play here. Things aren't as black and white as you try to make them out to be. ~ HW

I’m not flaming you. I’m just disagreeing with you. I was wrong about the bermuda, but Spring is the time for Zoysia and centipede establishment.

I still don’t get the 2.33 hour idea. Maybe some people can keep their seeds wet with 10 minutes of watering, but that assumes everyone has the same limited amount of yard area. Clearly that is not the case. While it is true a lot of people have small lots, not everyone does and some people would need way more time than 10 minutes to cover their entire lawn.

I don’t understand the point you are making about car washes. Sorry.

Again, not a flame and while I admit to my error about seeding bermuda in the fall I still do think you don’t have a full understanding of the issues at play here. Things aren’t as black and white as you try to make them out to be.

~ HW

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2562 Dana Sat, 16 Aug 2008 03:12:48 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2562 2.33 comes from 10 minutes per day. If you split hoses, then you can keep your seeds wet on just 10 minutes of watering a day. That's all it takes. 10min x 14sessions = 140 minutes/60 = 2.33 hours. I fully understand that the city wants to offer some flexibility to residents, however the issue is much-needed frequency, not volume increases. It's really not that complicated. The laws ALLOW me, too, to wash my car for 48 hours once the weekend rolls around. I'm not going to use more water on a Friday afternoon than I am on a Saturday. That's another example of how arbitrary water laws don't reach the intended consequences. Feel free to flame...on someone else's site. You are the one who wrote,"If you have bermuda, zoysia, centiped grass or some other warm season grass you do not establish it in the fall." This is clearly wrong, as evidenced by the passage quoted on Bermuda grass. Review the facts before throwing around words like "ignorance".

2.33 comes from 10 minutes per day. If you split hoses, then you can keep your seeds wet on just 10 minutes of watering a day. That’s all it takes.

10min x 14sessions = 140 minutes/60 = 2.33 hours.

I fully understand that the city wants to offer some flexibility to residents, however the issue is much-needed frequency, not volume increases. It’s really not that complicated.

The laws ALLOW me, too, to wash my car for 48 hours once the weekend rolls around. I’m not going to use more water on a Friday afternoon than I am on a Saturday. That’s another example of how arbitrary water laws don’t reach the intended consequences.

Feel free to flame…on someone else’s site. You are the one who wrote,”If you have bermuda, zoysia, centiped grass or some other warm season grass you do not establish it in the fall.” This is clearly wrong, as evidenced by the passage quoted on Bermuda grass. Review the facts before throwing around words like “ignorance”.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2560 HW Sat, 16 Aug 2008 01:39:01 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2560 Dana, You have an interesting way of twisting things. My point about not everyone reseeding in the fall is because not everyone has fescue which should be reseeded in the fall. I'm not suggesting you reseed fescue in the spring, of course that would be bad. I don't understand your comment about people only needing 2.33 hours to water their lawns. Are you assuming everyone has in ground automatic sprinklers? Well they don't. If you have the old fashioned sprinkler you hook up to the hose you can only water one zone of your yard at a time and need to move it from zone to zone to get full coverage. This could take varying amounts of time based on how large or small your yard is. How you have determined this should take everybody 2.33 hours is beyond me. You might also want to consider that Raleigh affords 16 hours for watering not as a means for you to go "Hog Wild" with watering for 16 hours straight, but to allow people with varying work schedules to find an opportunity during that 16 hour window to water their lawn. Maybe you work until 9pm at night or maybe your work weekends. Of course it is best to water at the coolest point of the day, but allowing a large window for watering on at least two different days during the week (including at least one weekend day) is the only way to ensure that the majority of residents who want to water responsibly will have the opportunity to do so. I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of your posts about lawns, but your tendency to over simplify and find fault where there is none is slightly demonstrates a level of ignorance to challenges of municipal planning. ~ HW

Dana,

You have an interesting way of twisting things. My point about not everyone reseeding in the fall is because not everyone has fescue which should be reseeded in the fall. I’m not suggesting you reseed fescue in the spring, of course that would be bad.

I don’t understand your comment about people only needing 2.33 hours to water their lawns. Are you assuming everyone has in ground automatic sprinklers? Well they don’t. If you have the old fashioned sprinkler you hook up to the hose you can only water one zone of your yard at a time and need to move it from zone to zone to get full coverage. This could take varying amounts of time based on how large or small your yard is. How you have determined this should take everybody 2.33 hours is beyond me.

You might also want to consider that Raleigh affords 16 hours for watering not as a means for you to go “Hog Wild” with watering for 16 hours straight, but to allow people with varying work schedules to find an opportunity during that 16 hour window to water their lawn. Maybe you work until 9pm at night or maybe your work weekends. Of course it is best to water at the coolest point of the day, but allowing a large window for watering on at least two different days during the week (including at least one weekend day) is the only way to ensure that the majority of residents who want to water responsibly will have the opportunity to do so.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the spirit of your posts about lawns, but your tendency to over simplify and find fault where there is none is slightly demonstrates a level of ignorance to challenges of municipal planning.

~ HW

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2552 jrtlover Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:09:53 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2552 I'm a Master Gardener in Wake County, and Dana's exactly right about how to seed and keep fescue healthy; as well as about keeping a natural area presentable. One of the biggest problems in Raleigh is that we're situated in a climate band that makes us unsuitable for all grasses - it's too hot in the summer for fescue to survive without water and too cold for the warm-season grasses to survive easily in the winter. Yes, the warm-season grasses have done fairly well in the last few years because we've had warmer than average winters, but that will even itself out just as other weather phenomenons have over time. (Check weather statistics if you don't believe that!) If you don't agree with Dana's information, you should consult the NC Extension publication, "Carolina Lawns" (Pub. AG-69), which explains in detail the care of all grasses and lists the advantages and disadvantages of each variety. That publication is online at www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/guides.aspx#004175. You also can call the Master Gardener helpline at 250-1084. Master Gardener volunteers are on duty from 9:00 - 12:00 and 1:00 - 4:00 Monday - Friday; they answer all gardening questions, using NC State Extension and other research-based information as sources. Before you decide to abandon turfgrass as a ground cover, be sure to carefully investigate the problems associated with natural groundcovers. The NC Dept. of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) suggests a 30' area around homes with no dry natural materials (such as mulches and wood piles) to safeguard against wildfires which may start from tossed cigarettes, car mufflers, sparks from yard maintenance equipment (blowers, chain saws, edgers, pruners, lawn mowers, and even a malfunctioning air conditioning unit). Ironically, this danger increases with less rainfall, which is the very time people begin to think of creating more natural areas in their yards. Also, with natural areas, there are far more weeds to combat. Insects and wildlife (mosquitoes, yellow jackets, snakes, ants, roach-type insects, spiders, rats, voles, etc.) become a greater problem even in the house. And, if you're considering selling your home, some grass in the yard is proved to increase curb appeal; thus, the selling price of your house. The Council's water restrictions (and their refusal to issue lawn refurbishment permits) definitely creates a no-win situation for all concerned. My personal opinion is they've taken the quick and easy way, ignoring facts and consequences. Our only choice is to consult reputable sources for information and attempt to work within the constraints we're given. With that said, I beg everyone to get reliable information from research-based sources (on all topics); don't just listen to your neighbor or the guy you meet in the bar! Find out for yourself - you have a brain too.

I’m a Master Gardener in Wake County, and Dana’s exactly right about how to seed and keep fescue healthy; as well as about keeping a natural area presentable.

One of the biggest problems in Raleigh is that we’re situated in a climate band that makes us unsuitable for all grasses – it’s too hot in the summer for fescue to survive without water and too cold for the warm-season grasses to survive easily in the winter. Yes, the warm-season grasses have done fairly well in the last few years because we’ve had warmer than average winters, but that will even itself out just as other weather phenomenons have over time. (Check weather statistics if you don’t believe that!)

If you don’t agree with Dana’s information, you should consult the NC Extension publication, “Carolina Lawns” (Pub. AG-69), which explains in detail the care of all grasses and lists the advantages and disadvantages of each variety. That publication is online at http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/guides.aspx#004175 . You also can call the Master Gardener helpline at 250-1084. Master Gardener volunteers are on duty from 9:00 – 12:00 and 1:00 – 4:00 Monday – Friday; they answer all gardening questions, using NC State Extension and other research-based information as sources.

Before you decide to abandon turfgrass as a ground cover, be sure to carefully investigate the problems associated with natural groundcovers. The NC Dept. of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) suggests a 30′ area around homes with no dry natural materials (such as mulches and wood piles) to safeguard against wildfires which may start from tossed cigarettes, car mufflers, sparks from yard maintenance equipment (blowers, chain saws, edgers, pruners, lawn mowers, and even a malfunctioning air conditioning unit). Ironically, this danger increases with less rainfall, which is the very time people begin to think of creating more natural areas in their yards.

Also, with natural areas, there are far more weeds to combat. Insects and wildlife (mosquitoes, yellow jackets, snakes, ants, roach-type insects, spiders, rats, voles, etc.) become a greater problem even in the house. And, if you’re considering selling your home, some grass in the yard is proved to increase curb appeal; thus, the selling price of your house.

The Council’s water restrictions (and their refusal to issue lawn refurbishment permits) definitely creates a no-win situation for all concerned. My personal opinion is they’ve taken the quick and easy way, ignoring facts and consequences. Our only choice is to consult reputable sources for information and attempt to work within the constraints we’re given.

With that said, I beg everyone to get reliable information from research-based sources (on all topics); don’t just listen to your neighbor or the guy you meet in the bar! Find out for yourself – you have a brain too.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2522 lee Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:34:40 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2522 sorry, tried to be "PC" with it. look up CC's club and condos close to it in dt raleigh and you should understand the rest.

sorry, tried to be “PC” with it. look up CC’s club and condos close to it in dt raleigh and you should understand the rest.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2520 TSnow27604 Thu, 14 Aug 2008 01:47:03 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2520 Lee, you paint a colorful picture. So colorful in fact that I cannot understand half of it.

Lee, you paint a colorful picture. So colorful in fact that I cannot understand half of it.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2518 lee Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:01:54 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2518 TSnow27604 - yeah, be sure to move dt, next to cc's @ 3am and randars roaming the parking lots, watch two sketchers walk behind a dumpster in your parking lot and wait an hour before the cops that you called come to check it out, but before they show up, the two lovely guys walk out from behind the dumpster with smiles galore ...good times!

TSnow27604 – yeah, be sure to move dt, next to cc’s @ 3am and randars roaming the parking lots, watch two sketchers walk behind a dumpster in your parking lot and wait an hour before the cops that you called come to check it out, but before they show up, the two lovely guys walk out from behind the dumpster with smiles galore …good times!

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2517 lee Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:56:04 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2517 It's not really the "use use use mentality." We have fall's lake back and above its regulated maximum height the majority of this summer and we are not able to use the excess. all we are allowed to do is watch the excess flow downstream. the army corp had said that the height cannot be increased because it will effect all the little frogs and bugs downstream. you're telling me one more foot of water reserved (for future droughts) is going to drastically change our ecosystem? right.... meanwhile jordan lake is overflowing and nobody wants to share it. what happened to help thy neighbor? so its not use use use, its use it while we got it, or we'll lose it.

It’s not really the “use use use mentality.” We have fall’s lake back and above its regulated maximum height the majority of this summer and we are not able to use the excess. all we are allowed to do is watch the excess flow downstream. the army corp had said that the height cannot be increased because it will effect all the little frogs and bugs downstream. you’re telling me one more foot of water reserved (for future droughts) is going to drastically change our ecosystem? right….
meanwhile jordan lake is overflowing and nobody wants to share it. what happened to help thy neighbor?

so its not use use use, its use it while we got it, or we’ll lose it.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2515 Dana Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:43:58 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2515 "fertilizing and then heavy watering" Who is recommending "heavy" watering?

“fertilizing and then heavy watering”

Who is recommending “heavy” watering?

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2514 TSnow27604 Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:43:27 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2514 Or you can move into a downtown condo and promote dense urban growth to save our natural areas from sprawl.

Or you can move into a downtown condo and promote dense urban growth to save our natural areas from sprawl.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2513 Ken Metzger Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:22:58 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2513 The problem I have is that the recommendation includes fertilizing and then heavy watering. Our streams and rivers are polluted enough. I think we could use more trees (truly deep roots) and less lawn.

The problem I have is that the recommendation includes fertilizing and then heavy watering. Our streams and rivers are polluted enough. I think we could use more trees (truly deep roots) and less lawn.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/comment-page-1/#comment-2512 emily Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:15:25 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/12/city-of-raleigh-uninterested-in-healthy-lawns/#comment-2512 I have a grass free yard that is newly established and it isn't a lot of work. . I hand water once or twice a week, depending on the heat and spend about 15 min a week weeding. It's not a tiny plot either it's 1/3 of an acre. It amazes me how fast we fall into complacency knowing that we are, at any given time, weeks away from another drought. It is no longer a viable option to mindlessly dump whatever we want in our yards with out regard to our status a few months from now. Grass is a drain on our natural resources. It's pretty but it's irresponsible in the long run. So while it's nice that we have enough water right now that's not a guarantee for any amount of time. This use use use mentality is frightening.

I have a grass free yard that is newly established and it isn’t a lot of work. .
I hand water once or twice a week, depending on the heat and spend about 15 min a week weeding. It’s not a tiny plot either it’s 1/3 of an acre.

It amazes me how fast we fall into complacency knowing that we are, at any given time, weeks away from another drought. It is no longer a viable option to mindlessly dump whatever we want in our yards with out regard to our status a few months from now. Grass is a drain on our natural resources. It’s pretty but it’s irresponsible in the long run. So while it’s nice that we have enough water right now that’s not a guarantee for any amount of time. This use use use mentality is frightening.