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http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/comment-page-1/#comment-107 Rob Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:28:20 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/#comment-107 I work in downtown Raleigh. My other half works in RTP and was very tired of sitting on I-40 every day. Therefore we cashed out our ITB Raleigh house and bought near RTP and a future TTA train stop. Now I drive home at 65+ opposite the heavy traffic; however, I know the day will come when 40 will be at a stand still every rush hour in both directions. I'm hoping by that day I'll have my train from RTP to downtown!
I work in downtown Raleigh. My other half works in RTP and was very tired of sitting on I-40 every day. Therefore we cashed out our ITB Raleigh house and bought near RTP and a future TTA train stop. Now I drive home at 65+ opposite the heavy traffic; however, I know the day will come when 40 will be at a stand still every rush hour in both directions. I’m hoping by that day I’ll have my train from RTP to downtown!
http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/comment-page-1/#comment-93 ChiefJoJo Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:51:15 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/#comment-93 Dana, I would bet the plan you proposed would cost closer to $20B, not 6, as hard as that is to comprehend. Actually, a long proposed DC Metro extension to Dulles Airport was just rejected by the feds. IIRC, it cost over $4B for just one line extension of heavy rail. Forget about corridors and light rail for a moment... you begin by looking at intensive activity centers, or 'pearls' as you put it... the PLACES one might want to connect first. So for the Triangle, let's look at the major activity centers we might want to connect in the region--off the top of my head: UNC+Med, Downtown Chapel Hill, Duke+Med, Downtown Durham, NCCU, Southpoint, RTP, RDU, Cary, Crabtree, North Hills, Triangle Towne Center, RBC Center/Stadium/Fairgrounds area, NCSU, Downtown Raleigh, Wake Med, Rex, N. Raleigh. Did I miss any? Maybe, but I think I got most of them. Now overlay all those places against this map (what I think is the STAC 2035 plan): If this was the first time you saw that map, wouldn't you think it did a pretty comprehensive job of connecting the region? Maybe I'm too interwoven in the industry to completely understand the average person's reaction to the plan, but I actually think they got it mostly right, even if some of it looks the same.
Dana,
I would bet the plan you proposed would cost closer to $20B, not 6, as hard as that is to comprehend. Actually, a long proposed DC Metro extension to Dulles Airport was just rejected by the feds. IIRC, it cost over $4B for just one line extension of heavy rail.
Forget about corridors and light rail for a moment… you begin by looking at intensive activity centers, or ‘pearls’ as you put it… the PLACES one might want to connect first. So for the Triangle, let’s look at the major activity centers we might want to connect in the region–off the top of my head:
UNC+Med, Downtown Chapel Hill, Duke+Med, Downtown Durham, NCCU, Southpoint, RTP, RDU, Cary, Crabtree, North Hills, Triangle Towne Center, RBC Center/Stadium/Fairgrounds area, NCSU, Downtown Raleigh, Wake Med, Rex, N. Raleigh. Did I miss any? Maybe, but I think I got most of them. Now overlay all those places against this map (what
I think
is the STAC 2035 plan):
If this was the first time you saw that map, wouldn’t you think it did a pretty comprehensive job of connecting the region?
Maybe I’m too interwoven in the industry to completely understand the average person’s reaction to the plan, but I actually think they got it mostly right, even if some of it looks the same.
http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/comment-page-1/#comment-82 Dana Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:53:46 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/#comment-82 They say that airport stops are some of the lesser-used stops in rail systems, which is kind of surprising. For almost my entire childhood we went out to the airport to take/pick up my father twice a week. It would have been a lot simpler for him to call us from the airport as he was boarding the train headed for Wake Forest road, but that's just my story:) One thing that is brought up with trains a lot is the concept of a multimodal center; one station that handles Amtrak, local rail, and buses. It seems like the airport really ought to be a regional multimodal system. People from all those towns down the train line could ride to the airport or to a system to take them anywhere in the triangle. The airport and it's poor long term vision is the subject of a whole thread coming later, though.
They say that airport stops are some of the lesser-used stops in rail systems, which is kind of surprising. For almost my entire childhood we went out to the airport to take/pick up my father twice a week. It would have been a lot simpler for him to call us from the airport as he was boarding the train headed for Wake Forest road, but that’s just my story:)
One thing that is brought up with trains a lot is the concept of a multimodal center; one station that handles Amtrak, local rail, and buses. It seems like the airport really ought to be a regional multimodal system. People from all those towns down the train line could ride to the airport or to a system to take them anywhere in the triangle. The airport and it’s poor long term vision is the subject of a whole thread coming later, though.
http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/comment-page-1/#comment-81 Subway Scoundrel Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:42:45 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/#comment-81 I know people who do not work in RTP don't understand why the TTA does not start with a loop in Raleigh and one in Durham. I think after the 2nd go around with the TTA, they realize you still have to connect the regions. There has to be a backbone. As a RTPer, I could get to work fairly quickly, especially during rush hour with light rail service. For the airport, get me close to RDU and I am OK. You don't have to provide a entry point 50 yards from baggage claim. I have traveled the US and the world and yes, walking to the train stop in the airport is great but to be honest, walking outside the terminal and catching a bus for a short ride is no big deal. The distance between Miami Blvd. (airport stop) and the airport is a short drive so I guess I don't understand why people keep bringing this up. It could happen in years to come but it just may not happen the first time around.
I know people who do not work in RTP don’t understand why the TTA does not start with a loop in Raleigh and one in Durham. I think after the 2nd go around with the TTA, they realize you still have to connect the regions. There has to be a backbone.
As a RTPer, I could get to work fairly quickly, especially during rush hour with light rail service.
For the airport, get me close to RDU and I am OK. You don’t have to provide a entry point 50 yards from baggage claim. I have traveled the US and the world and yes, walking to the train stop in the airport is great but to be honest, walking outside the terminal and catching a bus for a short ride is no big deal. The distance between Miami Blvd. (airport stop) and the airport is a short drive so I guess I don’t understand why people keep bringing this up. It could happen in years to come but it just may not happen the first time around.
http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/comment-page-1/#comment-80 mp Wed, 06 Feb 2008 15:21:49 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/#comment-80 In theory, light rail seems like a great idea. It probably is a great idea, but there seems to be too much fawning over other light rail systems (Charlotte, Atlanta, DC/Northern VA) and not enough customization for our area needs. I admit, I don't know all the ins and outs of this proposal this time, but is RDU Airport included? If not, once again, this is a HUGE mistake. Everyone with whom I talked about the last plan with was shocked that a stop at the airport was not in the original plan. I mean, come on. How insane. In regards to RTP workers (something I happen to know a bit about), I think we would be THE target audience for this type of system. However, as Dana points out, the way RTP is laid out makes my 25 to 30 min. average morning commute turn into a 1.5 hour commute if this system is implemented as proposed. Asking people to TRIPLE their commute time and give up the freedom of being able to have their car available rather than being beholden to a transit schedule is not going to fly. Lastly, taxes. Right now this proposal relies on raising taxes. How typical. Why is it impossible for politicians to come up with something that would not raise my taxes and would also be self-sustaining? I bet this system would never make money in its current proposed form. Triple my commute time? Raise my taxes (again)? No stop at the airport? No way.
In theory, light rail seems like a great idea. It probably is a great idea, but there seems to be too much fawning over other light rail systems (Charlotte, Atlanta, DC/Northern VA) and not enough customization for our area needs. I admit, I don’t know all the ins and outs of this proposal this time, but is RDU Airport included? If not, once again, this is a HUGE mistake. Everyone with whom I talked about the last plan with was shocked that a stop at the airport was not in the original plan. I mean, come on. How insane.
In regards to RTP workers (something I happen to know a bit about), I think we would be THE target audience for this type of system. However, as Dana points out, the way RTP is laid out makes my 25 to 30 min. average morning commute turn into a 1.5 hour commute if this system is implemented as proposed. Asking people to TRIPLE their commute time and give up the freedom of being able to have their car available rather than being beholden to a transit schedule is not going to fly.
Lastly, taxes. Right now this proposal relies on raising taxes. How typical. Why is it impossible for politicians to come up with something that would not raise my taxes and would also be self-sustaining? I bet this system would never make money in its current proposed form.
Triple my commute time?
Raise my taxes (again)?
No stop at the airport?
No way.
http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/comment-page-1/#comment-79 Matt Wed, 06 Feb 2008 13:52:44 +0000 http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/02/06/transit-proposal-evokes-deja-vu/#comment-79 "Dream and give us something to dream about. Give us something that excites more than 14,000 of our 1,000,000 people." I agree. The problem is it appears that any transit plan will try to retrofit our transportation plans to work with what we already have (sprawl). If that's the case -- while it would still be a step in the right direction -- then it will be called a boondoggle and a tax black hole. The best plan is to significantly work on building up the mixed-use possibilities along the transit line. Make this a land-use/smart growth proposition and design the growth around the transit line, not try to retrofit it to growth that's not conducive to it. If that means ignoring the current RTP workers' needs, then so be it. Maybe RTP, like the rest of the region once rail is here, will build around it.
“Dream and give us something to dream about. Give us something that excites more than 14,000 of our 1,000,000 people.”
I agree. The problem is it appears that any transit plan will try to retrofit our transportation plans to work with what we already have (sprawl). If that’s the case — while it would still be a step in the right direction — then it will be called a boondoggle and a tax black hole. The best plan is to significantly work on building up the mixed-use possibilities along the transit line. Make this a land-use/smart growth proposition and design the growth around the transit line, not try to retrofit it to growth that’s not conducive to it. If that means ignoring the current RTP workers’ needs, then so be it. Maybe RTP, like the rest of the region once rail is here, will build around it.